Peter Golenbock has written some of the most provocative sports books in the past half-century, including five that made the New York Times best seller list. His first book, Dynasty, is an oral history of the Yankees' Golden era from 1949-1964-when they won 12 pennants in 14 years. Dynasty should be on every Yankee fan's bedside table.
Among his other books are The Bronx Zoo, which he wrote with New York Yankee pitcher Sparky Lyle; Balls with Graig Nettles; Number 1 with Billy Martin; Wild, High, and Tight, his explicit biography of the embattled Billy Martin; and The Forever Boys, a look at major league baseball from the perspective of several retired ballplayers.
In Part Two of this interview, Peter discusses Joe McCarthy, Billy Martin, and Reggie Jackson, as well as the book Idiot, with Johnny Damon.
PHIL ALLARD: Do you think that oral histories are harder to get published now than they used to be?
PETER GOLENBOCK: I think what publishing companies are looking for are celebrities. But what's also making it more difficult is that history has become less valued in society. A teenager today has the idea that anything that happened before he was born doesn't count.
PA: You can run into that with the Yankee/Red Sox rivalry, as if nothing happened before the 1999 ALCS.
PG: You run into that with anything having to do with history. If it's not on MTV or TV in general, then it didn't happen. So one of the things that allowed me to do these books is that, if I interviewed 25 or 30 ballplayers, there are probably only one or two that have been successful enough to devote a whole book to. But here are 30 other guys who get a chance to talk about their careers and provide meaningful insight.
PA: You wouldn't want to do a whole book on Woodling or Bauer, but they are nice component parts to a collective oral history.
PG: I happened to hit on something that really worked when I did Dynasty. My theory has always been that the reader would rather hear what the participant had to say than what I had to say. It all goes back to my original conversations with Red Rolfe. He told me about all the things that went on in his life, as well as a lot of Joe McCarthy stories. And I got to interview Joe McCarthy. That was a big thrill. I think he was 92 when I saw him. His wife had died the year before. He had a farmhouse in upstate New York. It was like interviewing God. Even today I still wonder how in the world I was so lucky to have that opportunity.
PA: How did McCarthy present himself? Was he down-to-earth? Was he regal?
PG: Regal. Autocratic. But when we started to talk about Lou Gehrig, I could see the tears forming in his eyes. Even then, after all those years, Gehrig was his favorite. I am sure he hated to take Lou out of the lineup that day in Detroit. It was clear to me that he loved Gehrig over all the others. To see that was remarkable. He had all this memorabilia on his wall. He had a photo of Gehrig on a horse. Lou had been in a Western. The picture of Lou on that horse sticks in my memory. But McCarthy was somebody who was formidable. He was a little guy but he had this aura, like Tom Landry in a way. But he wasn't an emotional guy at all. That's why his reaction to Lou was so moving.
PA: Did you ask him about managing the Red Sox? I was wondering about his starting Denny Galehouse in the '48 playoff game when Parnell or perhaps Kinder could have gone.
PG: I didn't ask about the Red Sox. It wasn't part of what I was doing. But I interviewed Galehouse in Fenway. He thought he was the absolute perfect person to start that game. He saw no problem with it. But once you lose then everyone has a problem with it. But it's hard to know.
PA: Writing The Bronx Zoo must have been fun. Now, the feud between Reggie and Thurman, that was real.
PG: It was really a feud between Reggie and 3/4s of the team. It was really the Thurman People against the Reggie PERSON.
PA: Reggie and Fran Healy
PG: Healy was a sweet guy. He liked everybody and I guess Reggie liked Fran because Fran was not judgmental and Fran was very decent to Reggie. But certainly that article in SPORT magazine, the "I'm the straw that stirs the drink" piece, bothered the whole clubhouse. It was Reggie's insecurities speaking. This was truly a clash of gargantuan egos. Reggie was used to being "THE GUY" in Oakland. When he came to New York he wasn't the guy. It was Thurman's team.
PA: There is Reggie thinking: "I have three rings and these guys just got swept by the Reds. To get to the Promised Land they need me." And there is truth in that.
PG: There is truth in that. There was a lot of criticism of Reggie and a lot of it came from Billy. Billy wanted Rudi to play left field. Billy thought they had plenty of left-handed hitters and they didn't need another one in that lineup. And George, and you can say what you want about George, but he knew the attractiveness of Reggie to the fans. The signing of Reggie Jackson was really the beginning of the Yankees as a matinee idol ball team.
PA: This allowed the Yanks to take the city away from the Mets.
PG: Right then and right there-and all of that unpleasantness was a result of the fact that Reggie wanted to be the straw that stirred the drink. Billy didn't think that any player should be bigger than the club. Billy was really a team guy. The reason that his teams were TEAMS very often was because he wanted them to play a certain way. Most of these guys realized that if they played it Billy's way they would win. Billy also did a lot with some poor clubs. He took Texas from last place to 2nd in '74 and he worked some magic with Oakland. Billy was the best manager of his generation. There is no two ways about it. Every time Billy managed the Yankees they were successful. Every time George gave that team to somebody else they weren't. You've got to give the guy credit.
PA: You talked to Art Fowler, Billy's pitching coach.
PG: I knew Art. He wasn't a bad guy at all. He probably had as many 20-game winners as Johnny Sain had. Art has never gotten the credit for that.
PA: Guidry gave Fowler credit for really helping him. Guidry is the best pitcher I've seen in my lifetime for one year. I'm too young to have seen Koufax. Pedro is there too. But to me watching Guidry in '78, I am not sure if gets much better than that.
PG: The only other pitcher I recall being as good is Dwight Gooden in his 2nd year.
PA: Tell me about Idiot, with Johnny Damon.
PG: Damon was fantastic. We didn't have a lot of time to do it. The World Series ended in late October and we had to get to it. Plus he was getting married, so we both decided: "This is what we have to do and this is the time we have to do it in-so let's go." We had a terrific partnership. I think people found his comments and analysis of what went on the past few years to be very interesting. It's hard to dislike Johnny. The reason he is a terrific person is because he finds the good in people. It comes out in the way he carries himself.
PA: Now about your NASCAR books, were you always interested in racing?
PG: One day in 1991 my agent called me up and said "How would you like to write a book about NASCAR?" They gave me a lot of money to do it and off I went. I found out that NASCAR teams are very much like the baseball teams, but in baseball you have one manager and 25 players. In NASCAR you have 1 player and 25 managers. I've had the opportunity to go back and interview many of the important figures in NASCAR history and their stories are as fascinating to NASCAR fans as the baseball stories are to the baseball fans.
PA: And the The Forever Boys.
PG: That's what got me to St. Petersburg, another milestone in our lives. Steve Henderson was the MVP of our team
PA: Bobby Tolan was your manager?
PG: Yep. Doc Ellis was one of the pitchers. Ronny Leflore played the first half of the season. Dick Bosman was one of our pitchers too. Bosman was the guy who pitched a no-hitter with Cleveland. He pitched for the Senators under Williams.
PA: Do you follow the Devil Rays now that you are down there?
PG: Sure. I am one of their 8,000 fans.
PA: You're no longer a Yankee fan?
PG: No, that's not true. I like them both now.
PA: Is there disgust because Devil Ray fans see Florida and Arizona coming in as expansion teams and winning the World Series, while they flounder?
PG: The Devil Ray fans don't look at that. They look at the fact that they are getting their luxury tax money from the Yankees and this money is supposed to be spent on ballplayers, but the salaries don't go up. George is giving a lot of money that's supposed to be spent by the competition to improve their teams, but it's not being spent that way. That is wrong. So if you are a fan of the Devil Rays, you become disgruntled.
PA: Have you soured on baseball overall, given all that's going on these days?
PG: HELL NO. Are you kidding? Baseball is fabulous.
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